CASTING SPELLS FOR 2015 : 2015: Jonathan should not come back to South South, if… Olorogun Gbagi ... GinaInt'lNews

Olorogun Kenneth Gbagi is one man that has been around in the public sphere. The criminologist, businessman and former minister of state (Education) is a chieftain of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP). For those who know him, he does not sit on the fence with regards to issues of national importance. In this interview,Gbagi who is the first Black world member of the highly revered AKS cadre of Rotary International, speaks on a wide range of issues.
Excerpts:
What is your take on the state of affairs in Nigeria today?
Would I want to apportion to myself a stakeholder or a young man who started very early or one who washed his hands clean? Should I tell you when I was younger with Awolowo in politics, or close as I was with Shehu Shagari? Put it very straight, it is unfortunate that we are still at the level where we are today in Nigeria. I do not know what else we can do to get it right. I think it is time for God’s intervention just as he did when we were at a crossroads. He has to see us through the quagmire we have found ourselves. There is no country in the word that is so close at orchestrating what I consider self destruct like Nigeria. We have no reason as a people to be where we are today. We have no reason to be so disrespected by the comity of nations.
We have no reason as a people to be taking a back role in the comity of nations. If you take our situation from when Idiagbon/Buhari took over government, before the Shagari era, you would agree that the first nation in the world which of course is America today, pleaded with the world, that we should reciprocate giving them four years visa so that they can give us four years visa also. You will agree with me that it got to a stage when America because of their level of indebtedness to us had to ask us to buy their rice to bring the level down. They asked us to buy their rice to reduce their debt to Nigeria. That was what brought the Uncle Bens rice era. If you had followed this country little by little, we have actually retrogressed as a people.
I find it very surprising that instead of going forward, we are going backward. Liken it to the issue of churches. You and I agree that we saw one church so many miles and kilometers away from another in Nigeria. Those days, we dressed up as children and we trekked miles to the church but today, we have a church per every neighbourhood. But even at that, what do we see? Crimes and criminality are growing every day. Yesterday, we did not believe in written agreements. Your father and my father had to sit down to reach an agreement and one would say based on this agreement, this land now belongs to you. They would just put one small block or stone to demarcate it. But today, with all the proliferation of lawyers in the country, agreements have become one thing that is not respected even with the documents before you.
Lawyers and Judges alike now discountenance documents. The truth is that we have reached a very bad situation. How do we now cross to become a country and a people that believe that there is death? One of the problems that we have today is that a typical Nigerian does not believe that death is inevitable. This is because if we have that feeling in our hearts, we would be careful in our actions on earth. The crux of the matter is that we do not even believe as a people that death is a price that we must all pay. That we must drum back to the ears of Nigerians. They must understand the psychic of death and that it is only what you leave as a legacy that matters. We still today talk about Awolowo. He still means so much in our lives, in our write ups and books. Gowon the same thing.
Nnamdi Azikiwe the same. M.I Okpare also. It is the same with the Sauduana of Sokoto. Ahmadu Bello and so on. All these people still mean so much to us years after they left this planet. The reasons why they mean so much to us are that those are selfless persons. They believed in the science of death as opposed to these young folks and the crop of Nigerians that we have today. Gowon was in my house to visit me a couple of months ago. Gowon is not a rich person after ruling this country for so many years. God has given him contentment. You are still making reference to what Gowon did as a person.
Do you think President Goodluck Jonathan’s proposed National conference will reshape Nigeria if well organised?
You used the word if ‘’well-organised.’ I am talking as a lawyer now; what is the legal plank on which the national conference is seated? We have a presidential system of government with a constitution that structured all strata of the administration of governance. We have not amended the constitution to give relevance and legal backing to the constitutional conference. Is the conference sovereign? If it is sovereign, what makes it sovereign? You must carve out something to give out something. In my opinion, I don’t know the plank on which the national conference is based. I am at a loss because the same duty the National Conference is now supposedly doing, both houses of the National Assembly- the Senate and House of Representatives are invested with powers to look at them under the constitution.
Nigerians don’t have confidence in the National Assembly because of the way they were elected… What is the difference between the manner in which the members of the National Assembly are appointed, handpicked or selected by government or persons and the manner members of the committee were appointed?
So does that mean you don’t agree with the opinion that there is need for Nigerians to dialogue?
I agree absolutely that, as a people, we must have a conference. I only disagree with the way it is being put together. For instance, who is representing my interest as an Urhobo man, as a Deltan? What input do I have in the conference? Who is representing you from Ohafia? What interest do you have? When I was lecturing at the advanced unit of the Police college, I told them, we are wasting our time. Take for instance, the Police; we must go back to state and local government police, at the appropriate time. How can a police from Adamawa come to Okpe, in Urhobo land, to say he wants to do proper policing?
He needs four years to study the language, to know the place, etc. But you and I from the local government know ourselves from childhood; we know who is a thief or criminal from primary school. So, on national conference, we must thank President Jonathan for thinking about national conference and initiating the process. Whatever is the shape or form of the conference? Nigerians must now use that platform to demand the proper way forward, a sovereign national conference, to bring about change.
Some critics see the conference as a diversionary tactics to boost President Jonathan’s 2015 re-election agenda. How do you see that?
I disagree with you. We have structures. I don’t see Jonathan – I worked for him, I am a criminologist and as a professional I can read people. I don’t see how President Jonathan can imagine that he can swindle Nigerians with the national conference. We have courts, we have laws and legislation. If Nigerians truncate the conference, it is a different matter. Nigerians have been agitating for national conference and now the president has started the process, whether we as a people can use it to achieve a positive or negative purpose is not Jonathan’s making. No president in Nigeria, military or civilian had said there should be no no-go areas. Before, it was like an evil forest, nobody dared go there for 53 years.
But Jonathan has said, open the forest. So it is a stepping stone in the right direction. If President Jonathan does not conclude the conference the way it would satisfy the yearnings of Nigeria, it will no longer be a taboo for the president coming after him to say, he has done it to this stage, I want to take it to the next level. I commend President Jonathan for touching and daring what previous presidents in Nigeria could not touch. However, he has touched it, let us Nigerians sit down and achieve the goal. We know the goal, we know the problems of Nigeria. Let’s use the conference to solve the problems of the common man.
How do you view comments from a section of the North that President Jonathan should not seek re-election?
President Jonathan has a constitutional right as a Nigerian to seek re-election. I do not know what qualifies Tafawa Balewa, Shehu Shagari and Olusegun Obasanjo to seek office for second term that Jonathan does not have. Obasanjo from the South-West ran for two terms and nobody challenged his right to go for second term. Shagari from North-West contested election completed his first term and ran for second term and was sworn-in but the military truncated his second term. But nobody challenged his constitutional right to go for re-election. Nobody also challenged Tafawa Balewa. If late President Umaru Musa Yar’Adua was alive, nobody would have challenged him if he wanted to go for second term. Nobody has stopped a serving president in Nigeria, Africa, America, from seeking re-election unless he was defeated at the election.
I do not agree that the proponents of asking Jonathan not to re-contest make any legal, political and historical sense. However, should they feel that Jonathan has not done well, which is a matter of Mathematics; what did Jonathan as president get overall, what has he been able to achieve? What did Jonathan get overall and how much has he used to prosecute Boko Haram war with the army and what is left for executing projects? What did he get with regard to a level playing ground of a peaceful existence as a nation as opposed to what other presidents got? We must have a benchmark to assess all the presidents to know how they have performed. Having said so, it is not to say that Jonathan should not contest.
Jonathan should contest, Jonathan must contest. If those who don’t want him to re-contest know what they are doing, they should mobilise and stop him at the election. If because of this predominantly northern opposition Jonathan did not contest, he cannot come back to the South-South, we will chase him away. It is not Jonathan’s mandate, it is South-South’s mandate. We cannot be made second class citizens in our country. He cannot dare to say he will not re-contest. He will be shocked with the answers he will get. His mandate is a collective mandate of the South-South led by our hero, Ken Saro-Wiwa, who paid with his blood.
You are the first recipient of Arch-Klum Society (AKS) medal of Rotary International in the Black world. What does that portend for Nigeria?
The full meaning of AKS is Arch-Klum Society of Rotary. It is an exclusive cadre of Rotary where you must have donated to the cause of humanity the sum of at least $250,000. You asked what it portends for Nigeria: Immediate leverage. Everything is not Naira and Kobo. Once I made the mark of becoming the first Nigerian, African and Black person in the world to attain AKS, the President of Rotary, Sakuji Tanaka, flew all the way from America and came to my private house in Abuja to give me the pin. In spite of the security challenges, if the president of Rotary can come to Nigeria to recognise me, it has a leverage arrangement where relevant departments of government, if properly used, can make a lot of impact.
Having started the AKS euphoria, a few Nigerians have joined me. Former Vice President Atiku Abubakar paid up and became the second AKS in the Black world and then my friend, Sir Emeka Offor became the third. We have four other Nigerians, who have made some contributions but have not fully paid up but because of a provision of the Rotary constitution, they have been elevated to AKS because they gave a promisory note to pay up over time. You asked about the gains AKS has for us, our various departments and agencies of our ministries are not living up to expectation. On October 30, 2013 at the investiture in the United States of America, there were two flags: the Nigerian flag and the American flag. Just before I was inducted, the Nigerian national anthem engulfed the air.
Rotary started in 1961 in Nigeria, the year I was born. It pleased God that through me as a contact, we now have a Nigerian Day in Rotary. Talking about the budget of Rotary, it is more than the budget of countries. There is no president in the world that does not identify and partner with Rotary. By my efforts and those coming behind me, we now have seven AKS in Rotary and established the Nigerian Day in Rotary. I believe it is a great step in the right direction that sooner than later, we will be able to influence more advantages to Nigeria and Africa in the affairs of Rotary. There is no way I will make a statement to Rotary the world over today and Rotary will ignore it. It is only a matter of time and these advantages will begin to come.
As former education minister, what do you make of the ASUU four-month strike?
The ASUU problem is that of pure deceit. As a minister in the Education Ministry, I have information. The ASUU crisis is a pure deceit. You will recall that at a good cost, I created 12 universities. Before then, I had a conviction and proposal that we have no business, as a country, to run all these universities. America and other developed countries do not run universities. Why are we still running universities like University of Ibadan, University of Lagos, University of Benin, University of Nigeria, Nsukka, Ahmadu Bello University, etc? These new ones we are creating, let’s nurture them, structure them as a business and hand them over to the professors to manage as stakeholders and part owners.
These professors can manage the universities. We will almost not invest in these universities again. All we need to do is to transfer ownership and structure them in an arrangement of a corporate business, make all the professors joint owners and the universities will be run more effectively. If we can sell NITEL and NEPA, it is the responsibility of government to sell these First Republic universities to the professors, let them structure it themselves and run it but let the Ministry of Education regulate them. That is how it is done everywhere in the world. There is no way we can resolve the ASUU problem without privatising the universities. We are not being realistic. We cannot continue like this as a country.
If this oil that we depend on today dries up, how are we going to pay these trillions? If we did it yesterday as a father Christmas nation, it is about time we get things right. Private universities in Nigeria now are working better than these universities we have been carrying for decades. When I took up the Ministry of Education, I had my plans, goals and objectives. Then we had a Julius Okojie, who was a stumbling block. The President must be allowed to see the truth especially now that private universities are everywhere in the country. And I think with a proper instruction to an executive secretary of NUC who is apolitical, that ASUU problem would have been solved a long time ago.
We must agree that the best way to go is to give back the universities to the owners (professors and lecturers), let them structure themselves and we as government, regulate their affairs. You cannot fund them adequately. Even the power of autonomy of the universities is not with the government; so why are you going into what does not concern you when they can operate on their own and make the standard of education in the country three times better? If you hand the universities over to the professors, they will not allow anything to stop them from developing it because they see it as their own.
Won’t privatisation take university education out of the reach of the poor?
We can address this by giving scholarship to all poor and disadvantaged students. All poor students should be given discounted fees and we structure them in all the universities. With that, Government will pay less than five percent of what we spend in running the universities today. If in all the universities, government gives one billion each to cater for disadvantaged students, it will still spend less. With the 12 universities I created, the existing universities and private universities, in my memo to council, we still had 674,000 Nigerians qualified to go into but have no access because the universities have filled up. So, we still need more universities.
We need education system where we produce technicians, carpenters, welders, bricklayers. We have drifted away. Today, we don’t have people doing these jobs; we rely on foreigners from Benin Republic and Togo. In 2050, we will be 400 million in population giving the birth ratio we have today.